Linux Friendly Companies - UK
As I stated in my previous post, I bought an MSI Wind yesterday with XP installed, which was wiped and replaced with UNR as soon as I got home. I did have some communications with Argos, Comet, Currys and MSI during my research. I had mixed results, some of which are against UK consumer law as far as I know.
First I visited both Currys and Comet to get a feel for the size of 10" netbooks in the plastic, instead of just in pictures online, then I emailed Argos online customer service. I asked the salesperson who approached me from both companies about getting a refund for an unwanted and unused Windows licence. All three were so similar that I'm grouping them together. The separator was that the guy in Comet was on top of me almost as soon as I got in the door, which is something they tell their staff not to do as it often makes the customer feel intimidated to the point that they just turn round and walk out. Full disclosure: many years ago I used to work in Comet. It's changed beyond all recognition from my time there however.
All three were clueless to the fact that Windows is separate from the hardware. They trotted out all the usual lines about:
- It comes with Windows
- If you remove Windows it invalidates the warranty
- Windows is secure
- Windows is free
- You can't refund Windows
- Everybody wants Windows
These are the ones I remembered and aggregated from the three retailers. Sound familiar? Does Best Buy ring a bell? Best Buy employees were given staff "training" which amounted to pro-Microsoft propaganda designed with one purpose; demonise non-Microsoft and inflate, exaggerate or create the reality of Windows. It seems that Microsoft do the training materials for Argos, Comet and Currys in the UK too. The staff training in Comet is piss poor at the best of times, or at least it was in my time. So you can't really be surprised at the lack of understanding from sales staff on the realities of Windows and Linux.
Linux users know all of this propaganda by heart. Microsoft read the same PR manual as the Bush administration; they both apply the "if you repeat the same lies often enough in a docile mainstream media, people believe them" doctrine. The reality:
- Windows is NOT secure no matter how many security applications you run, or how much you lock down.
- Windows is NEVER free. The cost of the licence is included in the price of your new PC. The exact amount will always be hidden behind NDAs (Non Disclosure Agreement) between various companies and Microsoft.
- The Windows EULA (End User Licence Agreement) states that if you refuse to accept the EULA, that you're entitled to a refund. You are told to contact the seller or installer; funnily enough Microsoft don't want you to contact them, I wonder why.
- People buy PCs, which come with Windows. Most people don't "choose" Windows.
The warranty is a mixed bag too. You get a warranty from the manufacturer as well as the retailer. In these cases, the retailers warranty would be invalidated (assuming their responses are legal under UK consumer law) but that does not account for the manufacturers. The way the sales staff tell it, you'd think they speak on behalf of the manufacturers too.
Some manufacturers are very Microsoft centric, and see non-Windows as a warranty problem. Netbook manufacturers have no moral case here, as the ASUS EeePC with Xandros Linux started the whole netbook market, which they've all piled into with their own Linux netbooks. They've all been schmoozed by Microsoft into offering XP, then Windows 7 on their netbooks, while their Linux models are harder to find if they still make them. The point is that their hardware was designed with Linux in mind, even if most of their stock leaves the factory with Windows installed. They know Linux. They know Linux does not cause hardware faults.
I emailed MSI UK to ask the same questions I'd previously asked Argos, Comet and Currys and was very impressed with the tech support responses. First they were quite happy with Linux if customers wanted Linux. They told me that the MSI warranty is not affected in any way by the choice of operating system(s) the customer installs. They also told me that upgrading the ram was also allowed without affecting their warranty.
I explained that it was not just the cost of Windows I objected to, but the fact that Microsoft would use my sale as another buyer who "chose Windows" despite the fact that XP was wiped within half an hour of buying it. They helpfully pointed out that they sell models with an X which are their Suse Linux models, and a link for reviews. The downside of this was that I couldn't find anywhere selling their Suse Linux models.
Unfortunately the reviews I found, along with the approximate prices listed, meant that I'd be paying over £300 for an 80gb model. The deal I found for £200 was very good, I couldn't find any Linux model close to that price. I didn't manage to get the Windows XP licence refunded, but given the size of the discount, I'd imagine Argos made very little (if any) profit from my sale. MSI would have already been paid by Argos, so their tech support has been (kinda) rewarded.
I'd rather not buy Suse Linux because of the ethics of the Microsoft / Novell deal means that I'd still be paying Microsoft for Linux; which they are not entitled to a penny for, as they have nothing to do with Linux. Regardless of which Linux it came with, I'd always be installing my own as most Linux users would do; the point was to be counted as someone who "chose Linux".
I can't speak highly enough of MSI, as much as I struggled to find a Linux model, they do understand Linux and the fact that some users choose to use it. They don't use bullshit excuses to weasel out of promises. So if Linux users want to spend their money with a Linux friendly company, I'd include MSI in that camp; or the UK division at least. If Linux users in the UK want a great deal on a netbook, check out Argos for an MSI Wind.
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Comments
RE-Windows,
Why on earch do you want to wipe Windows off of your computer and replace it with Linux. Windows is much better than Linux. Also a lot of ISP will not support Linux Operating systems. Which is a problem if you run into dofficulties with your Internet connection.Jenny.
It's about choice
I choose to run an operating system that's not a malware magnet. I choose to run an operating system that doesn't waste a lot of resources to do very little. I choose to use an operating system that allows me to customize it to the way I work. I choose to have an operating system that's easy to use, doesn't need multiple reboots during monthly update cycles. I choose to use an operating system that doesn't need a range of anti-spyware, anti-virus etc applications all running, wasting CPU cycles just to keep it alive long enough to use it.
Windows does not even come close to qualifying as "better" on any of those grounds. It is the undisputed king of malware however. Botnets are 100% exclusive compromised Windows PCs. Those botnets make all of our online experiences a nightmare flooding our sites and email inboxes with unwanted spam, or DDoSing sites to take them offline.
The operating system has nothing to do with your connection to your ISP, as long as the drivers detect and use the modem / router it makes no difference whether it's a Mac, Windows, Linux or BSD. My router has the ISP account information connected to the internet, my PC is connected to the router. This means that I have a fully working internet connection from ANY OS on my network at first boot, with no configuration required.
People assume Windows is free, because the cost is hidden. It's built into the price. Windows is never free. Think about this. A PC is supposed to be a multi purpose tool, where you can customize it to whatever your needs are, you have a wide choice of monitors, hard drives, motherboards, cases, laptops, DVD drives etc but it's Windows, Windows, Windows, Windows or Windows. Doesn't that strike you as odd?
My main objection is having to pay for something I know in advance I have no intention of using. They should be selling a PC with NO paid pre-installed operating system, or even Windows in trial mode. If the customer wants Windows they pay for it separately, they get a product key and enter it on first boot to turn it into a full install of Windows. That would allow even those who want Windows a choice, right now they don't even get to choose the edition of Windows that comes with their PC.
If you wanna choose Windows, good for you, I'm sure the various corporations and secret services around the world thank you for allowing them access to your private data. Not to mention the 100,000's of criminal gangs who write malware to steal and abuse your data. I choose not to allow access to mine.
If you're right and Windows is better, then people would still buy it. Nothing would change. Sadly, the only people who think that are either those with a stake in keeping Windows as the status quo, or those who haven't understood the alternatives on offer. I would be curious to hear your arguments of why "Windows is much better" to see if they match the often debunked Microsoft FUD spoon fed to the easily influenced, or whether they're actually accurate.
Linux verses Windows
What no viruses on Linux? Don't make me laugh! My brother used Ubuntu and he was infected with a virus and had to reinstall his whole system. When I tried linux it just frozed and crashed my whole computer. Linux is a waste of space stick with Windows.Ben.
Thank you for playing
If I was your brother I'd be right down the bookies to lay a HUGE bet on. Since Linux appeared in around 1992, there's been a total of about 40 viruses, none of which work any more and none are in the wild. So if what you claim is true, then your brother must be VERY lucky to be the only person to have gotten it. Being the diligent type that you are to comment on these things, presumably you'll return and give us details of this virus your brother got on Ubuntu. A name? Symptoms? I look forward to your reply, I'll even do my duty and make sure it's promoted around the FOSS world to save you the hassle of doing so. Cant say fairer than that now can I?
Compare that to the 100,000's of new pieces of malware appearing every DAY on Windows. The Microsoft tactic of trying to paint every alternative to Windows as being just as vulnerable is very old, very false and evaporates when people actually explore for themselves, rather than believe the unsubstantiated attacks. Even the MacDefender for OSX isn't a virus, it does not spread on it's own, it relies on tricking people into downloading and installing it.
As if your brother wasn't the only chosen one in your family to have a special relationship with Linux that nobody else can experience, despite many of us actually TRYING to get infected to see if it's possible, your hardware crashes too? Wow, you two really have been chosen. I'm jealous. All OS's can take funny turns with certain hardware, Linux is no different to Windows on that statement. I've had the odd distro which took exception to parts of my hardware, it's very rare but it does happen. This is another area I'd love to see the reply too, what hardware? How did it crash? What were the symptoms?
I assume by you making an issue that Linux does that, you're saying that Windows doesn't? Really? You're playing to the crowd here, many of the people reading these comments have to use and / or administer Windows, they know their experiences of Windows. They know if they have issues with it crashing. I've seen it plenty of times myself, I'm not the only one. But that's OK, we'll single out Linux as the only OS that does it shall we? The difference is that Linux has an optional graphics layer called X which means that most of the time you can restart that layer and keep all of your stuff running, you're not forced into a full reboot. There's a reason Linux is used for mission critical situations, it can be trusted to run them efficiently and reliably. Did I mention I can be more productive by using less time and hassle to update my system, which includes having regular updates (not once a month) and not having to reboot with every one.
The difference is that hardware vendors have deals with Microsoft to see the Windows code, so their stuff SHOULD work perfectly with Windows, but anyone who's used Windows for any length of time knows how hollow that statement is in reality. You still have to screw around with drivers for most things.
Where things differ is that hardware drivers are always separate for Windows, and if the vendors decide not to do a driver for your version of Windows, or don't do a very good job of it, you're outa luck. For the most part hardware drivers in Linux are built into the kernel so they're detected and loaded on first boot. I always love demonstrating the Compiz spinning cube on a live CD. Yep, 3D acceleration running from a live CD. You do know what a live CD is right? Of course you do, what am I saying? You installed Ubuntu for your brother, it came on a live CD.
This is one of the wonderful things about Linux, people can download and burn an iso image to a CD, reboot with the CD in the tray and have a full live Linux experience without modifying anything on their hard drive. This lets you do several things, like check your hardware works, check you can get online etc which for most people works just fine without any configuration. It also allows them to check the validity of the claims made by people who have a vested interest in ensuring Microsoft remain the only choice and spend their time spewing intentionally false information in blog comments.
I find it fascinating that both of you chose to attack Linux in the comments and miss the point of the post altogether. It's about choice. If you really believe Windows offers the best value for money, then you'll believe people who taste the free alternatives will reject them in favour of paying a fortune for Windows. In that case, why the determination to refuse consumers that choice?
I also find it fascinating that a blog post written on the 19th December 2009 suddenly becomes the hot post in the comments, both of whom are pro-Microsoft people who seek to spread misinformation with vague statements and nothing to back them up. Isn't that a coincidence? Microsoft are well known for astroturfing, so you be the judge. Hint: look at the end of each of "Jenny" and "Ben"'s comments. Notice anything similar? I wonder whose IP I'd find for each comment if I chose to go looking at the logs? Any takers?
I fully expect more pro-Microsoft commenters to turn up on other Linux posts to repeat the same tired old debunked FUD (Fear, Uncertanty & Doubt) in the hopes of swaying the unwary.
I love LMDE
I'm just about to buy my daughter a netbook and of course it comes with Windows 7 pre-installed (that's why my search turned up your page, I wondered if Argos would give me a refund).
I'm with you all the way, I know the OEM license fee wont add much to the cost of the netbook but it really gets on my thru'penny bits that M$ gets some of my money.
I just had to comment because I loved the way you dealt with the Windows trolls, your responses are very expressive and very amusing (and somehow very British).
The refund merry-go-round
Microsoft and their partners, including retailers have gotten into a well practiced routine of passing you around between each other to avoid having to honour their legal duties. The point is to discourage you or put so many obstacles in your path that you just give up trying.
The one you need to focus on is the netbook maker, in my case MSI. They bought the Windows license as a part, just as they bought the keyboard, screen etc to put together into a boxed unit to supply to the retailer. Legally the ball is in their court, whether or not they manage to claim that back from Microsoft after refunding you isn't your problem. Many hardware vendors don't even try as it sours their relationship with Microsoft, they just absorb the hit. If enough people do it, it becomes not only a cost they can't absorb, but a clear signal that people want a non-Windows option.
On a netbook the cost can't be hidden so easily, but since Microsoft pushed XP out in favour of Windows 7, the whole floatilla of netbooks with it have risen on a higher tide line. XP was reported to be about £5 to £15 on a netbook, even Windows 7 Starter (the one that's so locked down you can't change the wallpaper or much else if memory serves) is about £30. These details are always hidden behind NDAs so the customers never know. If you do get a refund of £20, you have no idea if you should have gotten £30.
The cost is offset by all the crapware they put on a new PC. They get paid for every trial ware Norton, Photoshop Elements etc which offsets the cost of Windows. This is why even the Linux options are more expensive, despite it being free, they can't load it down with crapware. Asus have recently announced they're offering Ubuntu 10.10 pre-installed on 3 models, after a while as a Microsoft exclusive. I've not seen what models, where they're sold etc but it may be worth investigating if you or your daughter are planning on installing Linux on it anyway.
Microsoft are petrified of a future where customers have a real choice, because they know that "barely good enough to last a year" just won't cut it. They know they'll be rejected by a LOT of people, who'd rather have better and cheaper alternates. Hence they have whole departments dedicated to ensuring the customer never has a real choice. They remind me of the scrawny kid, who's always last to be picked for the sports team. The only way they ever get picked as anything other than being the last one left is to own the school. It's like Bill Gates made Microsoft in his own image, formed from his school sports experiences.
On the bright side, I think most of the netbook vendors do realize Linux is popular on their devices, so even if they don't support it for fear of a call from Microsoft, they do at least make their units compatible. The built in Intel graphics chip in mine means I have full Compiz even in a live environment without any hassle over drivers, because it's in the kernel.
Good luck on the hunt for your legal rights, make sure you blog about it somewhere. The more people who call out this practice, the more pressure it puts on companies to stop it. Some have offered a conditional refund, the condition being you stay quiet. They don't want people telling others they can refund it, and insist that fulfilling their legal requirements is a "one off favour just for you". Personally I'd refuse those conditions, and expose the attempt, which makes them look even slimier.
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